"Kissimmee city commissioners are looking again to change their folksy logo, this time to incorporate the motto "In God We Trust." Commissioner Art Otero, who proposed the addition, said he was prompted to suggest the change because he doesn't agree with the direction the country is going under the Obama administration, which he referred to as "socialist." He said his initiative was not based on faith but on patriotism.
"This nation has been moving toward more liberal postures such as homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion and the legalization of marijuana," Otero said. "I'm against that way of thinking. Those are not the values upon which this nation was founded. I think we need to fight for the values we're losing."
I am not opposed necessarily to the term, In God We Trust, but I believe that Mr. Otero and others in his position with the same argument are wrong for bringing church and state together, and imposing their personal faith based belief on their constituents in the name of politics. There are plenty of gays, marijuana smokers, abortion supporters, homosexuals, and people who do not believe in "God", or whose "God" may be tolerant of such.
The values on which this country were founded, last time I went to school, were freedom...and freedom from religious persecution. I am all about fighting for values, or a better country, but your rationale is all wrong, and thrusting God into a political forum made up of all people, seems to be stepping backwards, not forwards.
Now, lets go to Kissimmee and heal us some queers.
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Wanted to add some comments that appeared when I posted a link to this at FaceBook. There is a lot more info in them:
Michael Powers I am always wary of a politician who wraps themselves in their religion even if I have similiar beliefs...Wednesday at 1:13pm · · 1 person
Melanie Hamilton So let me see if I have this straight--it's patriotic to divide people over God and Country just because *you* don't like the current President. oooookayyyy....Wednesday at 1:25pm · · 1 person
Bill Smith Wonder if Mr. Otero hangs out in bathrooms at parks,,,,,?Wednesday at 2:08pm · · 2 people
Derek DragojevicI wish we would just take all this god non-sense out of our government. We built this country on freedom of religion, which allows people to believe in no god if they wish. So why is the statement on all our money and said at public schools in the pledge? It's unconstitutional if you ask me. Anything to do with a god is religious, and there is supposed to be a very distinct separation of church and state, just like it's supposed to be illegal to purchase fireworks in Florida...Wednesday at 2:38pm · · 2 people- Bill Smith God is in politics because politicians know that the majority of voters are older, more conservative christian sorts. They pander to those who put them in office. If pagans and atheists and gays were the loudest majority of voters then politicians would pander to them. It's that simple.Wednesday at 2:51pm ·
Harry SmithGetting several messages from different people making point of saying I am a liberal, LOL. I wear no label, I am issue driven. I can see any side of an argument if it is presented, and I am not a fan of hypocrisy. I would point out that ...See MoreWednesday at 3:30pm · · 3 people
Daniel Sheehan Just as racism has delined steadily for 400 years, steadily but at great cost with wars and fights for justice, another scourge on humanity will decline with even greater speed in the age of information, literacy and eduacation for all. That scourge is religious thought with all its rejection of the rational, scientific, and equality for humankind.Wednesday at 3:32pm ·- Harry Smith I have no issue with religion until it interferes with the government. We the people have a right to any faith we choose, but when our governors thrust their belief system upon us, I take issue with that. When the do it and say it is not based on faith, but on patriotism...I find that ridiculous, especially considering we have only been here a few hundred years after fleeing persecution and tyranny.Wednesday at 3:35pm · · 3 people
- Harry SmithI really avoid topical issues like the plague, because people get their feathers ruffled. I imagine I will lose at least 4 friends and some customers over this alone, LOL. Grrr. I enjoy hearing an opposing view...others seem to need to be surrounded by the like minded. I dont get that. What preacher wants to continually preach to the choir? A world in which everyone agreed with me would be boring, and I would learn nothing.Wednesday at 3:42pm · · 2 people
- Melanie Hamilton It's all about blurring the lines between patriotism and faith, to make theocracy acceptable because if you don't, you'll be made to feel like a loser. IMO, it's really just another way to divide people. Divided we will fall.Wednesday at 3:43pm ·
- Derek DragojevicI'm registered as an independant, and Chris Rock can explain best:
"The whole country's got a f**ked up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are f**king idiots. Democrats are f**king idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots. Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a f**king fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I'm a conservative! I'm a liberal! I'm a conservative! It's bulls**t! Be a f**king person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion. No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some s**t I'm conservative about, I got some s**t I'm liberal about."Wednesday at 3:53pm · · 2 people - Melanie HamiltonI seriously believe that if everyone quit watching the crap passing for "news", a lot of the infighting and dividing would stop. They put divisive shit out there and they do it very carefully--someone WANTS us divided. And when I say someone, I'm not talking about a particular administration--this has been going on for forty years now.
(puts on English major cap) There's a whole science devoted to the power of language and how to manipulate people with it, and I swear, it's happening right now with our media. It's not that hard to coordinate it anymore, there's only four or five conglomerates that control all of it now.Wednesday at 3:54pm · - Hamilton Timmer Gays don't like what Heterosexuals do to each other. But Ive never had one tell me Hetero was wrong. I bet the guy you are talking about is a closet case Homophobe.Wednesday at 3:58pm · · 1 person
- Harry Smith I registered IND but then could not vote in the primaries. Had to pick a side to join the fight. If you are not an R or D, you dont have a voice in the primaries.Wednesday at 4:00pm · · 1 person
- Bill Smith I alwys thoght you seemed to lean towards the conservative side Harry. Mr Otero lost all credibility for me by blaming Obama for gays and marijuana tolerance. Usually those who scream the loudest against things are ultimately exposed as partakers in said things. Just ask Anthony Weiner. He's the latest. Maybe Mr. Otero is next.Wednesday at 4:03pm ·
- Melanie Hamilton That's the only reason I'm registered with a party. Um, not that our primary votes really *counted* last time or anything. If it's gonna get screwed up again next year, I'm going back to "no party affiliation" :-(Wednesday at 4:04pm ·
Karen Mott Yeah, pathetic excuse, and it will end up costing them in massive legal fees I betcha, when someone - aided by the ACLU - brings suit against the city for using public funds to promote religion. Now, if they were trying to put "In Thor We Trust" on there, I'd be down with that....Wednesday at 5:27pm · · 1 person
Tom Bulfin I'm not convinced that the word "God" necessarily implies any specific "religion" or "Church".Wednesday at 9:43pm ·- Bill Smith It does when the person pushing the issue has a strong affiliation with a particular church,,,or is pandering towards a certain "group" of religious sorts.Wednesday at 9:47pm ·
- Tom Bulfin My understanding is that the Founders wrote and spoke of Nature's God, and Natural Law.Wednesday at 9:47pm ·
- Bill Smith Today's people seem to have let go of what our founders were thinking,,,it's all about applying things to one's own personal needs and potential benefits anymore.Wednesday at 9:52pm · · 1 person
- Tom Bulfin Exactly. I don't go to any Church, but have a profound respect of Nature, and have studied Eastern philsophy in great depth. Ignorance is our greatest enemy.Wednesday at 9:57pm ·
- Bill Smith Yeah,,just look at the general populations' response to a recent court case,,,,ignorance is rampant. I'm with you on the religion thing.Wednesday at 10:00pm ·
- Harry Smith I would love for this guy, in a non "religious" way, to tell me how changing the logo to say "In God We Trust" is going to save Kissimmee from gays, socialists, obama, and marijuana! That is what I was pointing out. I have no problem with it if they come out and say it, but to do this, and say it is about patriotism not faith is just silly.Wednesday at 10:03pm ·
- Bill Smith Of course it's silly. And those who don't understand that it's silly need to take a breath,,,turn off the visceral reactions,,,set the emotional thing aside and think for themselves just for a minute. A hearty task lately for most folks.Wednesday at 10:06pm ·
- Tom Bulfin It is silly. Education in this country has become laughable.. and how much money have we thrown at it? Indoctrination is not education, and it happens on both sides.Wednesday at 10:08pm ·
- Harry Smith How much money will Kissimmee spend to change all the old logos to new logos, and what if they just gave that to a school instead?Wednesday at 10:11pm ·
Old Haw CreekThis country was founded by Christians seeking to practice faith without persecution and to allow other faiths to worship as well. God is in out Declaration of Independence because our forefathers died trying to fight for the right to have "God" in their lives whatever way they saw fit. Thats what makes our country great... So rather you like it or not, this country is, and was founded by Christians... With a high majority of the population today still Christians. So if you have a problem, move to another country/society that will let you believe what you want. Or just dont say "god" when saying the pledge of allegience, or whatever floats your boat...But at least have some respect for our forefathers who died for the opportunity we have, or our grandparents who fought So that we aren't speaking German, or our current soldiers who are fighting against terrorist that will kill you... Not because your Christian, but because your American.....Thursday at 3:46pm ·- Harry SmithI "get" what you are saying, 100%. But, the singular point of my rant is, how responsible is it to say they are adding "In God We Trust" to the city logo, because the person suggesting the change is not in favor of the current administration, and its policies, and the current "liberal" policy leanings regarding homos and pot, then in the same breath say it is not about faith, but about patriotism? He is suggesting that the city should turn to God and away from where they are headed. That sounds like preaching faith to me. That is my issue. I have no problem with allowing anyone to follow their faith. I have an issue with a politician pushing faith and calling IT patriotism.Thursday at 3:52pm ·
- Harry Smith I can totally respect that. That is your FAITH, not your POLITICS. You may make political choices BASED on your faith, but your politicians should not be making your choices based on theirs.Thursday at 3:59pm ·
- Bill SmithThere's a big difference between our forefathers' use of God in the Declaration of Independence and politicians of today using "God" to pander to voters and to spew hatred towards certain groups of people. After all, the forefathers also said "all men are created equal",,,,not all "Christian" men. Also,,,,if you read the Declaration,,,,it refers to Nature's God,,,,and the "Creator",,,,,not a Baptist's God,,,,or any other religious sect. Not even Christian. The forefather's beliefs as well as God Himself have been bastardized to suit people's needs and whims. That is not what our forefathers were trying to do when this country was founded.Thursday at 4:01pm ·
- Bill Smith Mr. Otero's push to put "God" into the logo is a pure case of pandering,,,and an excuse to push hatred,,,,it has nothing to do with God.Thursday at 4:03pm ·
- Bill Smith Looking at it, our forefathers only mention the word "Christian" once in the Declaration,,,and they were using it to describe a king and his atrocities. Hmmmm,,,,,,Thursday at 4:21pm ·
- Old Haw Creek I pledge allegiance, to the flag of the United States of America. And to the republic for which it stands, one nation, UNDER GOD, indivisible... With liberty and justice for all. Has a nice ring too it doesn't it? Oh yea!Thursday at 5:19pm · · 1 person
- Harry SmithWell, yes and no. I am not trying to be the "anti-God" guy here, lol. That is not my agenda at all. BUT given my original point, when backed into a corner, I can produce facts, rather than emotion. (Much like a certain jury...). Bringing up the pledge, it was composed in the late 1800s by a SOCIALIST minister. (Christian socialism is espoused by those who are on the Christian left as well as socialist. Ironic, because of Mr. Oteros fear of socialism, but I digress... It was edited for his purposes, and eventually adopted, BY POLITICIANS, in 1942 as our national pledge. The words UNDER GOD were not in there then, and were added in the 50s, finally proposed by a politician after it having been pushed by groups such as the SAR and Knights of Columbus. Ironically, Eisenhower was raised a Jehovahs Witness...and had recently converted to a Presbyterian, and the Jehovahs Witnesses have been a vocal opponent to the two words BECAUSE the bible states that no allegiance is to be formed to anyone other than God. SO, what seemed like a good concept, actually has become more divisive itself. That verse does not appear in a bible, it was concieved in good theory, and adopted into the POLITICS, without a real concern for God, whoever each person may feel that "god" is.Thursday at 5:58pm ·
- Harry Smith I am not the anti God guy, just the separation of church and state guy.Thursday at 5:59pm ·
- Harry Smith I dont want my preachers dictating how I vote any more than I want my politicians telling me how to praise.Thursday at 5:59pm ·
- Harry SmithAre legalized pot smokers unamerican? Are gays unamerican? Is tolerance of gays unamerican? Is the freedom to support or condemn the sitting president unamerican? Are people who get or support abortion unamerican? OR do they just not sit right with a segment of people who label themselves Christian? THESE are the people Mr Otero does not support, simply because HE does not agree with THEIR ideology, and THAT is why he proposed the addition of IN GOD WE TRUST. In that scenario, it is total crap. These people are expressing their rights to be free and not impeded by the government, or the government imposed God.Thursday at 6:15pm ·
- Harry Smith God should not work for any government, or be a representative. A god should work thru those who are in power and believe. Constituents should not be coerced to live a certain way, by the word of the government, on authority of God.Thursday at 6:16pm ·
- Harry SmithOHC, you said "But at least have some respect for our forefathers who died for the opportunity we have...Not because your Christian, but because your American". Is it not the more American concept to embrace the diversity and allow people to be diverse, or are we embracing that when the chips are down we should all pray to God? Which America is it? They are mutually exclusive concepts if in the name of a certain God or religion, one is castigated for being different.Thursday at 6:27pm · · 1 person
- Old Haw CreekThe whole statement was meant to allow individuals to pay their own respects to whatever "god" they like.... Realizing that whatever one you worship is your choice. However, being an American means we should respect others religious choices, and more importantly, respect the men and women that have given their all for this great country. If a politician wants to bring the "god" subject to their forum, then it's their career that their gambling with... But it is also their right to take that stance, just as it's the right of ours to question that stance. Should church and state be separated. I don't know the answer.... In fact, nobody has that answer... And those who believe that their view is the ultimate correct view are lost and naive. We can only answer that question for ourselves and voice our opinion with friends such as yourself when the right forum is here. As for me.... I vote for the best candidate, not a party line..... Too bad about those primaries too... There should be more opportunities for the taxpayer / voter!Thursday at 7:44pm · · 1 person
- Tom Bulfin Separation of Church and State is not in The Constitution. Christine O'Donnel got hammered for that statement. She was correct. The same way Sarah Palin was mocked for her comment on Paul Revere. Look it up. I am so sick and tired of leftist bullshit. Do your homework, fer cryin' out loud...12 hours ago ·
- Harry Smith The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The Establishment Clause prohibits the federal, state or municipal establishment of an official religion or other preference for one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion.12 hours ago ·
- Harry SmithThe Establishment Clause's meaning has been a point of contention among different groups and its meaning has been interpreted differently at different times in American history. According to liberals, the Establishment Clause erects a wall of separation between church and state, although this term did not appear in the First Amendment but in a personal letter sent by Thomas Jefferson to church leaders in Connecticut.
However, according to some conservatives, the Establishment Clause solely prevents the government from establishing a state church, not from publicly acknowledging God. According to the Pew Research Center, the majority of Americans identify with the latter view, with 67% of Americans even deeming the United States a "Christian nation"12 hours ago · - Harry Smith As for me personally, my rants are just my opinions, not based on anything else. I dont purport to be a political scholar.12 hours ago ·
- Harry Smith And my rant is not so much about a concept, as to Mr Otero being a hypocritical asshat for the reasons I mentioned, which all stand up on their own.12 hours ago ·
- Harry SmithLOL...that is a loaded question. Why does anyone care about anything? Most people are silent, others very vocal. Extremes and in betweens. I have my moments of outrage, and this was one of them. For the reasons I mentioned...mostly that he states it is about patriotism, not faith...yet how in the name of patriotism do you condemn gays, abortion, or the change in marijuana laws? That sounds like reasonable moral outrage, but not political. Not if you are saying the cure is to add God.11 hours ago ·
- Tom Bulfin How can you reconcile your love for fellow human beings, and animals... at the same time embrace the "blind watchmaker" theory of Evolution. It makes no sense to me.11 hours ago ·
- Harry Smith I never stated my personal faith in this debate, just Mr Oteros hypocrisy, and my opinion that government should not dictate religion. I was very careful in that wording.11 hours ago ·
- Harry Smith I dont like to wear labels...I have been called out from both sides, LOL. I post a couple of threads like this and my inbox fills up with people calling be a f**king lib, LOL. I can see all sides and have my own opinions and moments of outrage. I tend to not tilt at windmills that dont blow on me.11 hours ago ·
- Tom Bulfin You would make a great lawyer, Harry. LOL I am so fed up with the obvious BS we are and have been spoon-fed for so long. Enough already.11 hours ago ·
1 comment:
I want to add that peoples thinking changes over time. Not everybody believes in God now these days. That does not mean that their tax check differs in any way.
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